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 [Mage] Frost vs Fire vs Arcane - raiding

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Julailton



Number of posts : 38
Age : 28
Registration date : 2008-07-05

PostSubject: [Mage] Frost vs Fire vs Arcane - raiding   Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:22 pm

The goal of this post is to help all you stray mage sheeps because we still dont have a mage class leader. Please go away if you dont want help.

Always use mana gems and potions on their CD, dont wait untill you are low on mana to use them.

As a general rule of thumb:

Spell Hit (untill capped) > Spell damage = Spell Haste > Spell Crit > Spell Pen
This is true for all specs except arcane, this is discussed further in the arcane section.


FROST

Spec:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/mage/talents.html?tal=2300550000020000000000000000000000000000000000535020310230010251551


NOTE: This is close to the "PvP" spec but the only damage talents that work in raids were taken.

Pros:
-You will never, and I mean NEVER go oom.
-High criticals allow burst damage.
-Cold snap allows for Icy Veins x 2
-Currently a ghost bug with elemental precision for FROSTBOLT ONLY, gives 6% hit reducing
the hit cap to 124. (Blizzard may change this at any time).

Cons:
-Water elemental is a huge part of your DPS, but most fights aoe damage is taken and it is killed.
-Water elemental will go oom before it despawns if not killed.
-Frostbolt does not hit hard when it doesn't crit.
-Since most mobs in raids are immune to "shatter" frost loses alot of DPS.

Overall:
-Frost is a good starting point for a new raider who does not know how to control mana consumtion
but will almost always be out DPSd by fire and/or arcane.

SOCKET CHOICE: Unless the socket bonus is greater then either +12 spell damage in every socket, ignore it. Stick with +12 spell damage.


FIRE

Fire is usually refered to as the "highest dps spec" but the truth is
fire does the best on its own compared to the other specs, it does not
need group support for amazing dps.

NOTE: You need 164 Hit for fire builds.

Spec Choice: 2/47/11 (+1 extra point, usually in imp fireblast)

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/mage/talents.html?tal=2000000000000000000000050520201230333105312510235000010000000000000

This spec is the highest fire DPS. Pure spell damage and haste is key
to this build. Rotation is scorch x5, fireball x8 scorch x1, repeat.
Popping Icy Veins at the beginning of most fights allows you to use
it again when the boss is in molten fury range which dramatically
increases DPS.

Spec Choice: 10/47/3 (+1 extra point, again commonly used in imp fireblast)

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/mage/talents.html?tal=2300050000000000000000050521201230333105312510030000000000000000000

Oldschool firespec before Icy Veins was introduced. Again stacking spell damage and
haste is key to this build, same rotation, except clearcasting helps with mana effiency.
Icy veins is not taken which dramatically reduces DPS.

Pros:
-Fire is incredibly easy to gear for as well as argueably the highest dps spec.
-Great burst damage.
-Talents alone give fire a 9% chance to crit.
-Long range

Cons:
-Worse mana effiency then frost.
-Long casting time suffers on a fight where movement is imparative for survival.
-Aggro issues.

Overall: Fire is a very effective raiding build that shines on long boss fights. (Molten Fury range).
Fire is easy to gear up to the standard but preforms above the standard.

SOCKET CHOICE: Most effective with haste, so stacking Reckless Pyrestones (haste/dmg)
improves dps, as well as +12 spell dmg.





ARCANE

NOTE: Only 75 hit is need to hitcap arcane spells, but you generally have more
so your "filler spell" does not resist.

Arcane is a truly unique spec where mana = damage.
Arcane blast is a 2.5 second spell where every time you cast it, the casting time
is reduced by .3 seconds, and mana cost is increased by 20%.
The ending effect is Arcane Blast becomes a 1.5 second cast with a mana cost of
633. As you can imagine, this eats mana like crazy. Thus you need a filler spell to refresh the
mana cost of arcane blast.

CHEATING THE DEBUFF OF ARCANE BLAST: The debuff that increases mana cost lasts 8 seconds.
When you need to refresh the debuff you can either:
-Cast 2-3 frostbolts (depends on lag/haste)
-Cast 2 fireballs
-Cast Arcane Missiles
You will have about a half a second of dead time, but then if you cast Arcane blast again...
The spell will begin casting while you still have the debuff (Because casting time is determined
when you are casting) BUT the debuff will run out and it will cost the BASE mana, this is because
mana cost of the spell is used AFTER you cast the spell.
So you get the 1.5 second cast with the base mana cost.

NOTE: The goal of arcane is the keep 3 stacked arcane blast debuffs as LONG AS POSSIBLE
to maximize DPS. You only refresh the stacks when you need to conserve mana.

Itemization: Hit untill capped > damage > INTELECT/SPIRIT > crit > haste

Haste only screws up rotations and causes your mana pool to run out faster, and doesn't increase DPM (damage per mana point).

Intelect and spirit, as arcane you have 60% mana regeneration WHILE CASTING.
and with the patch 2.4 spirit changes stacking intelect is very worthwile.
It is fully possible to get 400 mp5 (mana regenerated every 5 seconds) as arcane.
Coupled with a Shadow priest and shaman for mana tide it is entirely possible
to spam AB for the majority of the fight. Gemming for regen can cause you to cast
over 10 more AB in the fight, each hitting for 2.5k and critting for 5k. How much +DMG
would you need to make up for that? A hell of alot.

The reason stacking Intelect as arcane is
1 Int = 17.25 mana
1 Int = 0.288 spell damage
1 Int = 0.014 Spell crit rating

Mana regeneration formula:

[MP5 = 5 * (0.001 + sqrt(Int) * Spirit * Base_Regen) rounded up]
base regen = 0.009327 at 70.
Take 60% of your result and that is your Mp5 while casting.

Pretend we have 2 identically geared Frost mages. One sockets all his gear with +dam gems while the other sockets with all int gems. Which does more damage? It's a stupid question. We all know that the one who sockets +dam gems is going to do more damage in any reasonable situation. Now if the two mages are both arcane specced, who's going to do more damage? That depends. Int increases the mp5 generated by spirit, so with kings and a full set of raid buffs, it's not unusual for the int-stacker to have 20% more regen but 100 less +dam. Mind mastery makes up for this. Even knowing that, which is better still depends on the fight length and will change depending on whether, for example, how good the spriest is. The bigger question of whether one of the arc mages is better dps than the frost mage or his friend the fire mage is similarly complicated. There's no way of knowing without knowing everything about your raid and which boss you're asking about.

Arcane is the most gear intensive spec. It is nothing amazing without the (2) piece set bonus
of tier 5.

The 3 possible specs:

Arcane/fire:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/mage/talents.html?tal=2500050300230150330125050520100230300000000000000000000000000000000

The goal of this spec is to still spam AB, but when conserving mana rotate in fireballs to cheat the
debuff. Note you need 202 spell hit to cap fireballs.

Full arcane:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/mage/talents.html?tal=2550050300030150333125050520201000000000000000000000000000000000000

Again, goal is to spam AB but use AM as a filler spell.
Note: AM scales horribly and costs a hell of alot of mana. Also the mana
is spent at the beginning so if you have to interrupt the channeling all that mana
is WASTED. Only need 76 hit. This is recommended for some SSC fights due to
Frost immune mobs/bosses.

Arcane/Frost:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/mage/talents.html?tal=2500050300230150330125000000000000000000000000535000310030010000000

Once again, spam AB. Use frostbolt as a filler spell. With ~50 haste you can fit in 3 frostbolts
during the debuff cheat. FB is the highest dmg filler spell because of the crit bonus dmg from
frost AND arcane. Also allows for icy veins x2 iceblock x2. Also you are able to take advantage with the frostbolt 6% hit to hit cap early and stack spell dmg. Hit cap 124 with frost.

Socket Choice: Intelect and Spirit is better the longer the fight, dmg outscales it on short fights.



To see the gear choices or what to upgrade I recommend you download "RAWR"

http://www.codeplex.com/Rawr/Release/ProjectReleases.aspx?ReleaseId=13446

Of course it is a theorycraft device and is just an estimate, does not account for deaths,
time moving in a fight etc.


------------------------------------------------------


Last edited by Julailton on Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:54 pm; edited 8 times in total
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Julailton



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Age : 28
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PostSubject: TL:DR version   Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:49 pm

Wall of text crits you for over 9000.
Seriously heres the "too long didnt read" version


Frost = early raider / pvper. Never go oom. Scales horribly.
Hit cap 124

Fire = Easy to gear, great damage early and engame, scales the best.
Hit cap 164

Arcane = Not great without 2p t5, very mana intensive, gear dependant.
Hit cap 76

Fire / frost
Hit > Damage = haste > Crit > Pen


Arcane
Hit > Damage > INTELECT/SPIRIT > crit > haste > pen


Last edited by Julailton on Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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Heph



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PostSubject: Re: [Mage] Frost vs Fire vs Arcane - raiding   Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:33 am

I always heard fire was best end game...
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Julailton



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PostSubject: Re: [Mage] Frost vs Fire vs Arcane - raiding   Sun Jul 06, 2008 1:19 am

Heph wrote:
I always heard fire was best end game...



This is somewhat true, fire is the highest dps engame content with no class support.
Arcane can keep up with fire with the correct group setup.
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Heph



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PostSubject: Re: [Mage] Frost vs Fire vs Arcane - raiding   Sun Jul 06, 2008 1:50 am

Yeah well, fury ftw I say
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Horky

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PostSubject: Re: [Mage] Frost vs Fire vs Arcane - raiding   Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:40 am

i liked the second post
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Julailton



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PostSubject: Re: [Mage] Frost vs Fire vs Arcane - raiding   Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:41 am

Horky wrote:
i liked the second post


Thanks sweetie Razz
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Mackadoody

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PostSubject: Re: [Mage] Frost vs Fire vs Arcane - raiding   Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:24 pm

Deep Frost specs CAN theoretically perform almost as well as a deep fire spec.
It involves liberal use of the Water Elemental, and a maxed out Winter's Chill.

Apply the Winter's Chill debuff with rank 1 Frostbolts at the beginning of a fight to jack up the frost crit chance, then nuke away.

Unfortunately, it's been shown that even with the water elemental, two equally geared elemental mages' DPS will still favor the fire mage by 5%-ish... and no shit... that's what's been theorycrafted.

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Horky

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PostSubject: Re: [Mage] Frost vs Fire vs Arcane - raiding   Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:32 am

how bout something important, like where2get the character profile splash 4 ur sig!?
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Horky

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PostSubject: Re: [Mage] Frost vs Fire vs Arcane - raiding   Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:57 am

nm i got it
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Julailton



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PostSubject: Re: [Mage] Frost vs Fire vs Arcane - raiding   Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:10 am

Horky wrote:
how bout something important, like where2get the character profile splash 4 ur sig!?



Www.dkpsigs.com
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